Curse

Saphatorael · Jun 12, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Nowadays, you see almost nothing but [skill]Shadow Prison[/skill] on Assassins who use Daggers.
I myself have gotten plenty of Gladiator points in the first days of Nightfall, when it wasn't very popular yet, and grew bored of it before it even got popular in Random Arena's (Home of the infamous Touch Ranger as well).

Then [skill]Burst of Aggression[/skill] got 'lowered in efficiency' (I'll try to stay away from that overused n-word), and people looked for the few alternatives that Assassin dagger chains could bring. People used [skill]Tiger Stance[/skill], [skill]Lightning Reflexes[/skill], [skill]Flail[/skill], [skill]Flurry[/skill] (or even [skill]Frenzy[/skill]). But it basically was the same build all over again:
Shadow Prison -> Off-Hand that requires a hex -> Dual Attack -> another Off-hand, often hex-based (Falling Spider in a few rare cases) -> Dual Attack.

This skillbar has varieties, be it with a self-heal: [skill]Feigned Neutrality[/skill], a snare as a back-up hex in case Shadow Prison isn't enough: [skill]Siphon Speed[/skill], and sometimes a back-up plan in case the opponent has stances/blocking enchantments: [skill]Expose Defenses[/skill]

Well. I'm bored of all of that, and made a few builds of my own, huzzah!
They range from mediocre to great, but it's up to you whether you stick to your cookie-cutter Shadow Prison sin (which any decent player will counter easily), use the Yansassin, or use some of my random builds, if not slightly change them at your preference.

Zealous Daggers are recommended of course, unless the build uses Conjure X

1.
Let's start off with my very first idea.
I basically wanted to have a build using [skill]Palm Strike[/skill]. Quite hard, actually, since Nightfall brought us a better, non-elite alternative to skip the Lead Attack, especially through its synergy with Black Spider Strike, any any hex that lasts long enough for the combo.

Righto, time for the first build itself.
Dagger Mastery 10+1+1
Deadly Arts 6+1
Shadow Arts 6+1
Critical Strikes 12+1

[skill]Siphon Speed[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill][skill]Impale[/skill][skill]Palm Strike[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill][skill]Deadly Paradox[/skill][skill]Feigned Neutrality[/skill]
Template Code: OwBk0pe2HOuztjMfwSgVQBAPKND

The order in which the skills should be used seem obvious, a second Death Blossom usually finishes your target. The most fun thing about this one is the huge drop in health of your target when doing Impale + Palm Strike.
Very energy heavy as well, which is the main problem, so 13 Crit Strikes is a must, making you sacrifice your selfheal capability slightly.
Update: Well, Moebius Strike would be better in the long run indeed... I'll just leave the build here for the sake of telling you how I came up with n°2

2. A slightly modded version of n°1, when I wanted to get [skill]Shattering Assault[/skill] in a build to counter the upcoming Shield of Regeneration bonders after its buff.

Dagger Mastery 10+1+1
Deadly Arts 10+1
Shadow Arts 8+1
Critical Strikes 8+1

[skill]Siphon Speed[/skill][skill]Black Spider Strike[/skill][skill]Shattering Assault[/skill][skill]Impale[/skill][skill]Signet of Toxic Shock[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill][skill]Deadly Paradox[/skill][skill]Feigned Neutrality[/skill]
Template Code: OwBk0pe6HOiztjMLmTgvZBAPKND

Fun to use if you're sick of enchantment tanks.

After using these builds for a while, I noticed it was basically the same start: use a hex, use a hex-dependent Off-Hand Attack.
This had to change, and I turned to the Elementalist Secondary.

3. A/E Any Element
This build is fine with any Conjure spell, but I'll use Lightning, since my PvE sin has daggers with those mods.

Elementalist Element of your choice: 8
Dagger Mastery: 10+1+1
Deadly Arts: 7+1
Shadow Arts: 8+1
Critical Strikes: 8+1
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[skill]Golden Phoenix Strike[/skill][skill]Horns Of The Ox[/skill][skill]Impale[/skill][skill]Moebius Strike[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill][skill]Deadly Paradox[/skill][skill]Feigned Neutrality[/skill][skill]Conjure Lightning[/skill]

The skill chain basically says it all, give it a try ^^

4. A/E Conjure Shocker

Dagger Mastery: 10+1+1
Deadly Arts: 7+1
Shadow Arts: 8+1
Critical Strikes: 8+1

[skill]Shock[/skill][skill]Falling Spider[/skill][skill]Death Blossom[/skill][skill]Impale[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill][skill]Deadly Paradox[/skill][skill]Feigned Neutrality[/skill][skill]Conjure Lightning[/skill]
Template Code: OwZlggdq39hj4cOUYHsEoAgHlm7G
Currently my fav build.
Targets usually die after the Impale and your first Dagger hit after you've used it.
The main problem with this one, is the Exhaustion piling up. I've tried to keep the chain as 'cheap' as I could by sticking to 5e skills, but if you constantly spike whenever you can (let's say every 15 seconds, due to Impale's recharge), you'll find yourself in an annoying situation after 4-5 spikes.
Also: no Elite Skill, lawl, any suggestions which skill could be replaced by an elite effectively, feel free to tell me.
Update: Well, I suppose Shadow Prison, or Aura of Displacement could be brought instead of Deadly Paradox, but it'd get too energy heavy, especially with the exhaustion. Any shadow stepping skill could work, basically.

5. A/E Conjure Flame Burninator
Well, I decided to give this element a shot as well, but it basically put me again in the hex-dependent skill line.

Fire Magic: 10
Dagger Mastery: 10+1+1
Shadow Arts: 8+1
Critical Strikes: 8+1

[skill]Black Lotus Strike[/skill][skill]Horns Of The Ox[/skill][skill]Falling Spider[/skill][skill]Twisting Fangs[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill][skill]Feigned Neutrality[/skill][skill]Conjure Flame[/skill][skill]Mark of Rodgort[/skill]
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No elite again this time... same thing for Shadow Prison attack skills, you can switch out any that you like (example: Lotus, Twisting Fangs, Spider, Blades of Steel)
It'll spike better than Shadow Prison sins due to the heavier degen, but the lack of snare is quite a nuisance.

Condition Removal isn't really in my builds, but for the first 2, you could simply go A/Mo, and bring Mending Touch instead of Deadly Paradox

Shadow stepping isn't either, same thing applies if you don't like Deadly Paradox.

You might have noticed that I have Deadly Paradox + Feigned Neutrality, making me spread my attributes quite loosely. This is what I usually do, but I made sure the builds have just enough punch to kill 60-80 AL targets.
But, if you want to grab gladiator points in RA (for example) and hope that you get a decent monk, you might as well leave out any points spent into Shadow Arts, drop Feigned Neutrality, and grab a snare, interrupt, or shadow stepping skill.
Actually, anything not directly involved in the spike can be tossed out and replaced. It's up to you what you want to do with your freedom within the build

Hope you enjoy playing something else than that boring Shadow Prison sin

EDIT: Also, the Skill Codes seem to not work, yay >.>
EDIT 2: Okay, they work now... just refresh if they don't

EDIT 3: Added extra notes on some builds, I'll likely add more builds here as I come up with them, instead of making separate threads.
Also added some comments in the end.

Yanman.be · Jun 12, 2007, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Using Conjure while your combo's take 10-12 seconds to RC? Oh and don't tell me to autoattack.

Saphatorael · Jun 12, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Using Conjure while your combo's take 10-12 seconds to RC? Oh and don't tell me to autoattack.

Thanks for being constructive.

I don't see any relevance to Conjure, and a 10-12sec recharge on the spikes. Are you complaining about it being able to spike almost twice as often as the Shadow Prison sin builds, or are you complaining about using Conjures in a spike build?

And fine, I won't tell you to auto-attack, it's quite good DPS you're missing out on if you don't, though.

Yanman.be · Jun 12, 2007, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Conjure gets good if you hit alot during it's durations. You hit ( for example, on your Conjure Shocker ) 3 times every 10 seconds with your daggers. Not very good use of Conjure.

Saphatorael · Jun 12, 2007, 08:27 PM // 20:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Conjure gets good if you hit a lot during it's durations. You hit ( for example, on your Conjure Shocker ) 3 times every 10 seconds with your daggers. Not very good use of Conjure.

4 times. 60 Damage on a 60AL target. As a replacement for damage usually given through degen, which is still slower afaik. And it synergizes nicely for Golden Phoenix Strike.

As I said, I made builds that are different than the Shadow Prison ones, the Signet Spikers, and your builds.

I suggest you actually test the builds before criticizing them, the conjures boost the damage output quite nicely, and they work together with your daggers (+15% Damage While Enchanted)

And of course, you can pressure targets when not spiking... Yes, Assassins can pressure too, you know. Especially with Conjures. It's because of the Conjure X enchantment, that you can effectively pressure more than any other Assassin build out there without having to use any skills, whereas Death Blossom + Moebius gets energy heavy over time, but if you're running that, you're probably not running a spike build. And if you're using a spike build, you probably don't have that much DPS.
Long story short: Conjure helps with the spike, and gives extra DPS when not spiking.

ArKaiN · Jun 13, 2007, 03:06 AM // 03:06

I feel deadly paradox+Feigened neutrality isn't good enough to warrant inclusion in every one of those builds, specially since some of them could really use an elite(#4, conjure shocker, could actually use Ride The Lightning if it turns out to be not horrible after the update)

Yanman.be · Jun 13, 2007, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Shock+Falling Spider+Death Blossom is still only 3 times...

And I said, don't come with the auto-attacking argument. It may work, but you might as well put conjure on a sword warrior and you'll be doing waaaaaaay more damage.

X Cytherea X · Jun 13, 2007, 06:10 AM // 06:10

hmm if you did conjured-moebius-blossom spam you'd be getting MUCH more bang for your buck.

also, the usage of palm strike in the first build is whack. you might as well have brought moebius. the point of palm strike is to skip the lead and at the same time not need a hex.

still, the damage on all your builds doesnt suck. all have deepwound... check.

i have question though.. dont sins nowadays use majors or superiors in dagger? "most of your damage comes from attack skills" blah blah blah yeah but points in dagger also increase the +dmg of these attack skills in addition to your base dagger damage. which can spell the difference between a kill and a fail. just seems a bit half-assed to me. i always run 16dm/13cs ...then 4da ...or 4sa ...or 3da/3sa ...or 3 in a 2ndary att

Yanman.be · Jun 13, 2007, 06:19 AM // 06:19

On a positive note, your Shattering Assault build seems to be decent, the only "bad" thing is that they might block BSS.

Saphatorael · Jun 13, 2007, 06:37 AM // 06:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

Shock+Falling Spider+Death Blossom is still only 3 times...

So what if it's only 3 times? I just explained why it isn't any worse than 'random hex + Black Spider Strike', and that was my goal when I created the builds: to have alternatives to those chains.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

And I said, don't come with the auto-attacking argument. It may work, but you might as well put conjure on a sword warrior and you'll be doing waaaaaaay more damage.

I gave an argument why you auto-attacking isn't a bad idea (extra DPS, without needing IAS), you just ignore that without giving any counter-arguments; try to fail less, please.
And you also say that 'it may work'. I take it you still haven't tested them?

And once more: I wanted to make unorthodox assassin builds, so telling me another profession is 'better', is an argument that completely fails and has nothing to do with the point of my thread. Go visit the Warrior forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

also, the usage of palm strike in the first build is whack. you might as well have brought moebius.

Heh, didn't even think of it... was trying too hard to get a build with Palm Strike ^^

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArKaiN

I feel deadly paradox+Feigened neutrality isn't good enough to warrant inclusion in every one of those builds, specially since some of them could really use an elite(#4, conjure shocker, could actually use Ride The Lightning if it turns out to be not horrible after the update)
Yesterday 10:27 PM

Well, DP can be get rid of in favor of condition removal (wouldn't really recommend IAS) if you'd like to. I just like to play defensive whenever it's needed, and DP makes me able to have FN up about 80% of the time.
Also, Ride The Lightning couldn't really help the build, if one chain would give you double exhaustion... So far I haven't really found any elite to fit in there, but you might as well bring Moebius Strike instead of Deadly Paradox

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

have question though.. dont sins nowadays use majors or superiors in dagger? "most of your damage comes from attack skills" blah blah blah yeah but points in dagger also increase the +dmg of these attack skills in addition to your base dagger damage. which can spell the difference between a kill and a fail. just seems a bit half-assed to me. i always run 16dm/13cs ...then 4da ...or 4sa ...or 3da/3sa ...or 3 in a 2ndary att

Well, I've gotten used to GvG play, and superior runes are a big taboo there. Major Runes are only used if you really, REALLY need to reach a breakpoint (it's almost always about Expertise or Critical Strikes)...
Go ahead and change the runes if you'd like, though, it's just that I'm used to not using any health penalty runes, that I didn't even bother looking at them when making these builds

Yanman.be · Jun 13, 2007, 10:17 AM // 10:17

Yeah major/superior are hardly worth is these days.

RotteN · Jun 13, 2007, 11:09 AM // 11:09

majors/sups are pure suicide on an assassin, realy, you need every drop of health you can get ...

anyway, as for the builds : the conjure builds look nice, but the major downside is that you have to spread attribute points over a crushing 5 lines for it ... that's way too much realy, resulting in overall poorer performance of all your skills.

A conjure warrior can easely get a nice conjure build with only 3 attribute lines (or 4, depending on the build), resulting in overall better performance.

surely, your goal was to create some different builds for assassins, but imo running an inferior build on a weaker character is kind of counterproductive ...

Crazyvietguy · Jun 13, 2007, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

surely, your goal was to create some different builds for assassins, but imo running an inferior build on a weaker character is kind of counterproductive ...

Well not really, it gets idea stirred up which in turn creates stronger builds.
I do like your shattering assault build, and the conjure lightning builds have potential... not so much conjure flame.

Mobieus + Blossom + Lightning + Golden lead/offhand skills could apply serious damage.

At 3 pts Conjure Lightning does 10 per hit, 8 pts does 15 per hit. So 4 quick hits = 40 to 60 more +damage. Which is beneficial in PvP, not so much in PvE. Plus, with Mobieus an assassin can continuously spam Death Blossom which means 3 more hits per Mobieus + Blossom causing 30 to 45 more damage. So i can see where Conjure skills have their "perks" on assassins.

Saphatorael · Jun 13, 2007, 01:02 PM // 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

A conjure warrior can easely get a nice conjure build with only 3 attribute lines (or 4, depending on the build), resulting in overall better performance.

surely, your goal was to create some different builds for assassins, but imo running an inferior build on a weaker character is kind of counterproductive ...

Thank you. You have argumented/proven that Assassins can't really do a lot other than use the Shadow Prison or Signet build to spike, or use Moebius Strike + Death Blossom to pressure.

They're the poor man's Warrior.
Whereas a Warrior can be effective in many different ways using just 2 or 3 attributes, an Assassin that wants to do the same simply can't. Shadow Prison sins are effective, but lack versatility and self heals. An Axe Shock Warrior can spike, pressure (or relieve it), self heal (Healing Signet ftw) and screw up spikes and pressure using Shock or an interrupt if one has been brought, a Shadow Prison Assassin... does one of those, and needs to be specced heavily into offensive attributes to do so. The small amount of skillslots, and the limited amount of Dagger Attacks AND how they work in chains, just doesn't work as well.

I myself actually prefer playing Warrior, but Assassins are a welcome change... 'till a certain extent. The upcoming balance update didn't really show any interesting buffs that might create new dagger chains, making me think ANet thinks this profession is fine.
Well, it isn't. For a character that was brought into the game to be the ultimate solo-spiker, it's disappointing that there's only 2 viable builds (albeit with variants) in any form of serious PvP.
ANet even introduced Dervishes, which mock the very existence and of Assassins. They hurt alot more when critting (which is rather a trait of Assassins, since their Primary Attribute is all about Critical Hits), they have self heals AND utility skills in their non-weapon attribute lines... heck, they even have IAS (in the form of an enchantment, so they even get energy back)!

Nevertheless, I'll keep trying to make up some other builds, but indeed, they will be inferior to Warriors. But hey, you wouldn't be reading this at all if you weren't interested in checking out any Assassin builds that 'might work'. Mine do, but not as good as the cookie cutter ones. But they're here, and they've shown what I wanted to show.

Maybe I'll bother making a huge 'How to fix Assassins'-thread soon, find a way to make Lead Attacks useful in a build that doesn't skip to Exhausting Assault so Moebius Strike can be chained after it, and make some elites finally useful. It'll be one tough job, that's for sure.

PS: From the AT test server leaks, I learned that Deadly Arts would get a life stealing Dual Attack. Hrmz.
PPS: Added an extra comment in the first post involving Shadow Arts.

RotteN · Jun 13, 2007, 02:27 PM // 14:27

I'm reading this cause i play/have played pretty much every frontline position (warrior-assassin-dervish-ranger) a lot with a wide range of builds/goals.

right now the only thing it'd like to see is restoring golden phoenix back to 5 energy, so we can at least play around with AoD again

Assassins are not a "poor man warrior", they have their own pro's and con's. Shadow stepping is insanely fun to do, and can lead to very nice tactical moves (specially with AoD, still by far my favourite elite), but the lack of skills that can be used effectively with it to make a decent skillbar that actually has some selfheal and utility, ruins it. Golden Phoenix was fine, surely, it was overused at the start, because it was the only valuable combo. Right now, more combo's are possible, so i don't see why this specific one should remain so ridiculously energyheavy.

Am I A Good Sin · Jun 13, 2007, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Outta curiosity any1 ever try a hidden caltrops version of the Shadow prison sin? Well I finally made a decent one I think and once I get home I'll post it for you guys on here ( I'm using my cellphone. Sidekick3 FTW ). All I can tell you right now is you have 2 weapon sets. Daggers and a bow. Using Hidden Caltrops. Also I might have another build I just hav to look through my computer for it. It uses a unused elite as well.